Vatican Ambassador: "Pope Francis would like to speak against the war with Patriarch Cyril"

In the hall on the ground floor there are icons, both western and oriental samples. On a small table among other things are the remains of a Russian projectile and the Bible. The latter, says Wisvaldas Kulbobas, volunteers found in one of the destroyed apartments in Bucha - she burned something. Let's start from the beginning. On February 24, Russia invaded Ukraine again: hundreds of rockets, occupied large areas, killed and disappeared.

On the eve of Pope, the Roman Francis spoke about alarming prospects around Ukraine. On February 25, he personally came to the Russian Embassy in Rome, which violated all the protocols. And on the 26th his holiness was talked with President Vladimir Zelensky. Tell me, how do the Vatican and personally understand what is happening in Ukraine? And is there a difference for you, what does war from Ukraine and the Vatican look like? I can't talk about the whole holy throne.

As a representative of the Pope and the Holy See in Ukraine, I can talk about myself and the official position. The Holy See is, above all, Pope Francis. The Holy See is the highest organ of the Catholic Church. Therefore, you can almost identify the Holy See with the Pope. We know that our opinion is a personal opinion, until the Pope accepts and presented it as official.

For me personally, the invasion is at the same time a dramatic moment, as for every Ukrainian, because the war is tragic, dramatic in the physical and psychological sense. But as a bishop, as a priest, I accept it as a dramatic grace. Because I know many people who are interested in Ukraine, read, look on the Internet, what is happening. It is much more difficult for them to understand it, but they try. I am here, and I see and hear the suffering of people with all tragic.

It is clear that I write in the Vatican about what I see. And I'm not the only source of information. There are Internet, media, journalists, other priests, bishops who provide information to the Pope. In February-March, there was and remains such a lot of information about murder, other tragic political and humanitarian moments that it was difficult to cover them all. Therefore, my task was to focus on the most important aspects.

It is also important to understand that all aspects cannot know the Pope. The communicate of the Holy See says that Pope Francis speaks about the protection of human life more than political aspects. Political aspects are spoken by Secretary of State Cardinal Pietro Prodolin, his deputy Archbishop Paul Richard Gallahler, who came to Ukraine in May, other bishops, I, as Nuncio. It is easier for all of us to talk about pastoral aspects and political aspects.

For example, Cardinal Prockin has always talked about Russian aggression, about Russia's attack on Ukraine. Everyone understands what is happening. But the problem is that when a steamer or I speak, no one pays attention to it. Everyone is waiting for the words of the pope. And he personally chooses what words, what concepts want to say. And this is not always what we offer. I see that this is because he wants to be a shepherd, not a politician.

Is the Pope interested in politics at all? For example, I cooperated with the Vatican Secretariat from 2012 to 2020. And he saw that many times Pope Francis requested Cardinal steamline to explain the political aspects. This means that Pope Francis does not want to speak directly about what can be perceived as a political statement. Although I will say again: we all understand that Russia has started this war, not Ukraine.

But it should be understood that there is a position of politicians - presidents of countries, and the role of the Pope, who avoids politics, stay, as I said, a pastor. The task of the shepherd is to never be condemned publicly. Because the shepherd, as a priest, in direct contact one on one wants to talk about the most difficult things, but not in public. Here you can discuss a lot who, which priest understands this task.

But this is what I think about the Pope Francis, when I want to understand why he chooses the one, not the other concept. And this is the first aspect. The second is that the Pope knows that there are not many countries, not many people who can hypothetically be intermediaries. It is very difficult here: if Russia has attacked Ukraine, then human logic tells us that there is no room for such mediation.

If the conflict was not very complicated, it would be easier to find intermediaries, it is conditionally forgetting about everything done and living as friends. But with such a war it is not very real. Yes, it is unrealistic for human logic, but the Pope remains a praying priest, and who also has the hope that with the grace of God, what is impossible for human logic can be done.

And this aspect explains to us why Pope Francis chooses certain concepts, not the ones that people want to hear in Ukraine. How could the Pope's mediation look like? I know that not only with the beginning of a full -scale war on February 24, but earlier, because the war was already coming, the Ukrainian authorities and President Zelensky asked the Pope Francis, the Holy See, so that the Holy See was opened for possible mediation.

But in order for mediation to take place, it is necessary that the other side - the Russian Federation, perceives the Pope Francis as a mediator. I can be mistaken, but I see that there was no signal from the Russian Federation that they want to accept Pope Francis as a mediator. Small signals, someone from the Russian Ministry of Foreign Affairs in July said that they were treated with the Holy See, to the Vatican. There were little signs, but I have no information about serious steps.

After February 24, the authorities of Ukraine not only repeated this question, but I see, and I know that Pope Francis and the State Secretariat also went out with their initiative, looking for opportunities with the Russian Federation to be a mediator. The purpose of the mediator is to stop the war, not to reach a truce. And from the very beginning, Pope Francis said he wanted to go to Moscow. Not to go to say "good afternoon" or "how you do". The Pope's trip is an event.

When he goes, he sees the world. And so the arrival itself should mean that the pope already has some hopes, the basis for a trip to Moscow, opportunities for change. But we can conclude that Moscow has not seen the opportunity to take the Pope as a mediator. That is, its intentions to attack Ukraine have not changed. Therefore, there is no result.

Another aspect, which Pope Francis spoke about in his personal interviews, that from the very beginning of a full -scale offensive, he wanted to speak with Patriarch Moscow Cyril about a very clear idea - to speak together against the war. But we saw that Patriarch Cyril was not readiness. Even after a long conversation in March on video. I do not know exactly how the conversation went, but from all the interviews I know that it was not easy. And there is also no result.

There were also diplomatic church and humanitarian contacts. For example, at the end of March, the idea was that at first one Catholic bishop went to Mariupol with humanitarian aid with the Orthodox bishop. Then this initiative changed - I, like Nuncio, had to go from Kiev, along with the Orthodox bishop by Metropolitan Onufri. And this initiative was agreed not only with Pope Francis, but also with Patriarch Cyril. She could be a step to mediation.

But then we did not receive green light to pass into Mariupol from the Russian military forces. A little later, in early May, when the situation with the defenders of Mariupol continued to be very dramatic, there was such a hypothesis that the extraction process would take place. We know that she did not work, but Pope Francis knew that there was such a hypothesis, and realized that when she was realized, it would be better to come to Mariupol personally. And he was about to come. It was May 15-16.

This was resolved in writing. I informed both the wives of the defenders and the Ukrainian authorities that the Pope was ready to come to Mariupol. And we know that with the health of the Pope in May, he could not even stand, always sat in a trolley. But did this visit not happened as the Russian Federation to the possible arrival of the Pope to Mariupol? Russia did not simply give permission for extraction.

Who suggested that the Pope came to Mariupol personally? These were the wives of the defenders and many united initiatives. And one of the hypotheses was - if the extraction process goes, it would be better that the Pope was as a moral guarantor that the extraction process itself is correct, with human rights. How can you describe the Vatican connections with Russia? Pope Francis met with Putin three times and signed a declaration with Cyril.

I have no complete information about what was planned between Pope Francis and Vladimir Putin. It is the Russian Federation, and I am the Nuncio of Ukraine. It doesn't apply to me. But we can say that contacts between the Holy See and the Russian Federation have developed in recent years. But the fact that Pope Francis could not officially visit Russia. This means that these bonds have not yet reached a high level.

If Pope Francis comes to the country, meets the authorities, churches are a sign of very developed relationships. Why is the reconciliation policy so important that the Vatican, for example, illustrated the gait with the participation of two women - Ukrainians and Russians on Holy Friday, even when it is obvious that one side came to kill the other? Yes, this is a very important aspect and a moment.

But I will openly say that it will not be correct if I answer, because I wrote letters with my vision and suggestions in the Holy See. Researchers say that Pope Roman had avoided one side of the conflict aggressor. Why? As you can see from your questions, you are talking about Francis, and automatically refer to the Vatican, Vatican diplomacy. If you look at an interview with the Secretary of State Cardinal, a steamer, then everything is clear there. But everyone is waiting for Pope Francis.

And this has a difference. The pope decides how to speak to him. Of course, he is offered some messages. But it is easy to offer, because we do not have the same position as him. Pope Francis is a person to whom the attention of the world is drawn. Everyone hear what he says. If we say that Russia is an aggressor, it changes nothing. But it is impossible to understand what a person who has such a responsibility on the shoulders thinks. Because only he knows how he thinks about possible consequences. St.

John Chrysostom says in his sermons that if there is a sinner in society, it would be better not to talk about him in public. Because if we say publicly that he is a sinner, a killer, then he has a psychological motivation to change. We know that there are situations in which there is no way to wait for a person to change. And, yes, I hear many voices that say - no, it is impossible to wait that the Russians will change, we have to speak now. But, how to speak, the Pope decides himself.

After the words of the Pope about the death of the daughter of the ideologist of the "Russian world" Alexander Dugin Daria could hear a lot of criticism from the highest leadership of Ukraine. Did they hear this criticism in the Vatican? This is a very important part of my job, my task. And as you know, I had a meeting with the Deputy Minister of Foreign Affairs, at which I heard the official position of the Ukrainian authorities. And it was a very serious sign.

After I wrote a report, what I was talking about. Subsequently, a communicator appeared. That is, it was the answer to save the dad's reputation? The Holy Throne worked for several days on the communicator that was published. It contains clarity in things that needed clarity: aggressor - Russia.

How is the information about what is happening in Ukraine? For example, he spoke about giving NATO weapons to Ukraine or Dugin's daughter, but did not mention the specific names of Ukrainian children who were killed by the Russian army. To comment on the weapon for Ukraine, I do not remember. I want to say that there is also a manipulation by journalists. It is my opinion. As for NATO, the Pope did not express his opinion, he quoted a particular politician, a leader of a particular country.

It was a quote. Already here we see the influence of that politician, the president. And about Dugin, and about other similar things, personally I do not know what sources were. But this is evidence that the sources should be checked. Yesterday, the communicate was also affected that the Pope did not want to talk about political aspects, because the Pope also does not want to wait for a political solution to who is guilty and who is not. For him, as you mentioned, there are many children in Ukraine.

So. For example, I spoke to my friends in Italy, in Lithuania about children that every morning I pray for them. Before Easter in Odessa - Kira was killed. Dad returned from the store - there is neither a child nor a wife. These are the children I pray by name. I think it is good to remember and remember specific, but the Pope spoke of many, and those who, in particular, were taken to Russia, and we do not know what is happening with them. Not only do Pope lost lives are important for the Pope.

It is also important when children lose their families or families lose their children, or Ukraine loses children. In this sense, we see that the pope is very true to it. My personal opinion is that if someone informed the Pope that was killed by Dugin's daughter in Moscow, it was not so important for Pope Francis who and why: he thought about his lost life. The first lady of Ukraine Elena Zelenska has emphasized many times that every killed child is a killed world.

Adults are also not guilty of murder. To kill any life is a sin. Therefore, for the Pope to kill, to deprive life, if you are not protected, because protection is a fair war, always sin. This is my understanding. Do you personally communicate with the priests of the UOC MP? Was an example of the agreement of the humanitarian initiative to Mariupol. Then we talked more than one day, it was a long conversation at different moments.

It was the result, and very constructive, between the nunction and the metropolis of the UOC -MP at the level of discussion, but then there was no result in Mariupol itself. We spent a lot of time on it. We would like to continue humanitarian initiatives. Between churches in Ukraine or in the Russian Federation as well? I cannot directly contact the ROC, only through the State Secretariat. We are negotiating at our level regarding prisoners, children.

What are your efforts as ambassadors have given specific results? Unfortunately, I do not see any in the humanities. In March-April we were engaged in both Mariupol and Kherson. Results - zero. Even sometimes less than zero. We asked the State Secretariat for the Russian Federation to allow the evacuation of children from the Kherson region and received no answer. But then they learned that those children were taken out and we did not know where. I call this result - smaller than zero. It's terrible.

Under what conditions can Pope Francis come to Ukraine now? When Pope Francis personally decides when he has allowed his health. There is a general decision, and it is known in public. We know that presidents can come to Ukraine once and for the second time and for the third time. How much is it important. It is much more difficult for the Pope to come to Ukraine than for politicians. Because when the leaders of the countries come, and their visit becomes known later, it is acceptable for them.

For the pope - no. The meaning of the visit is not the point for him. He should not be hidden, meet only with the President, only visit Bucha, Irpin or Borodyanka, he must see people - victims, families of prisoners, killed. It is necessary to meet both priests and representatives of society. I understand that the Pope wants to understand when he can give more for Ukraine, at what point. We are waiting and I personally wait for the pope.

When can it be a right moment? Then we will know everyone and right away. Did you mention the Pope's possible visit to the Russian Federation, and after February 24, there were also negotiations? Yes, the Pope wanted to go to Moscow after February 24. And here is a risky (reputation. - Ed. ) For the pope - to explain to every Ukrainian why the Pope wanted to go to Moscow first, not to Kyiv. This means that there will be a lot of criticism for the pope.